in the hustle world of business
where we're overloaded with content and messages
it seems every blog and social media
podcast is churned out by ChatGPT
in this episode
I want to explore how the power of storytelling
is the key to communicating effectively in business
so we evoke emotion
create connections and inspire action
today I'm thrilled to welcome award winning business
TV and newspaper journalist
PR consultant
media trainer and presentation skills coach
Amber Danes to contact Catalyst Podcast
welcome Amber
how are you today I am fabulous and uh
love the introduction and yes
the power of storytelling is everything in business
yeah so if I read out here
I've got your seasoned communications expert
with over 25 years experience in media PR
corporate communications
and that you're the founder of Bespoke Communications
which I'd love to talk to you about as well today
so you've been helping uh
business leaders uh
craft compelling stories
and communicate with confidence
what I was interested
in is that you've worked with many uh
big corporate businesses Westfield Qantas
Westpac TEDEX
so today you are focusing
you've got an agency now uh
which uh
is all about media training
crisis PR reputation management and podcasting
and the other interesting thing about Amber
is that you're an accomplished author
with a best selling book well said
how to be heard in business and generate real influence
now
the other thing is that you are a podcast host as well
of the politics of everything
and you've recently been awarded the Gold Stevie Award
winner for the most Innovative Communications
Professional of the year wow
what an accomplishment
I know it makes me sound very old as well
but I'm I'm I'm okay with that
I'm gonna turn that into the the
the narratives gonna be that I'm accomplished
and I'm seasoned and experienced rather than old
love that uh
somebody else read out my bio on a podcast
I did a couple of days ago
and I'm like I think I need to update that
cause I think it had like three decades
and they went you don't like seem that old and I'm like
I'm I am that old
haha but thanks
we started with child prodigies
let's let's be honest exactly now um
I've worked in media and you've worked in media
and I think we've had many conversations
about that in the past but
can you share how you've gone from
journalist to communications expert
tell me through your journey
it's interesting
so I actually had I've spent more time on what you know
journalists would call the dark side in
in communications and PR yeah
that I was a journalist however
I really loved being a journalist
I was one of those people that the age of 8
decided I knew what I wanted to do
and um I was very influenced
I guess at the time by TV journalists
like Yana Wendt in Australia
and seeing correspondents and um
you know I never got to be a foreign correspondent
but I did get to travel as a business journalist
and I think for me
as a young kid growing up in a very suburban
um you know
middle income family where money was always um
slightly tight and we didn't travel heaps
and that was probably very much the 80s in Australia
we are so far away from the rest of the world
it was a great way to tick a lot of boxes
and I loved writing
although being a journalist is not really about writing
and I I remember this distinctly when I finished uni
I got my cadetship at at the City Morning Herald
um
it was very competitive and I remember them saying like
if anyone says they like writing
they instantly out of this out of this pool of people
and it's because being a journalist is about
much more than how you put the words together
or how you put the scripts together for TV and radio
which I've also worked in
it's really about being curious
finding out the truth or a version of the truth
and not coming at it with preconceived ideas
and I think that's probably been the best thing
ever taught me
as well as all the other skills and opportunities
I got to travel and so forth
and so where what are you doing now
what's your business look like now
so I've had a few businesses
I've been in business about 16
almost 17 years now yeah
um I never intended to be in business
I don't come from a family of entrepreneurs um
my dad was an academic
and he was a CEO for a long time
in property development um
and my mother worked in health services
so um
they're always employed by other people
so I'm probably a bit of an outlier in that sense
I I think for me
I started freelancing after a couple of jobs um
burnt me out in my late 20s
and I kind of never went back
so I did start another agency about 14 years ago
with some other people and we sold that on
and then two kids later decided
I really wanted to have a lean up micro business
so Bespoke
Co was born and we really focus now I guess on
we do do small business PR as well
but we do a lot of you know
corporate work as you mentioned
so media training presentation skills
crisis and reputation um
take everyone from strategy through the implementation
um earned media is a big part of what we do
so you know
what you hear on the radio
or on TV and podcasts and on newspapers um
but of course
social media plays a role in that narrative as well
so we've really evolved as comms has evolved
if you like in the last couple of decades
yeah well
it certainly has evolved hasn't it
I mean where does the social media landscape
fit into all of this now
do you think in comparison
well I think everyone thinks they're a journalist now
don't they so there's that
there's the difference so I
you know I always say to my clients
you know journalists have a code of ethics
we have a way in which we would do things um
you know 20 years ago when I worked in TV
you didn't have someone selling you footage from a
you know fire or a car accident for the TV news
you had to get a camera crew down there and and
and cover it in a different way um
everyone now it just it
it blows my mind you know
there's something good or bad happens
they get their phone out and they're filming yeah
and so we live our lives through a lens
but I think we don't have
probably the critical analysis
we kind of a bit of a herd mentality
when it comes to social media
so I think social media is powerful
but it's got to be part of a broader strategy in your
com so if you just rely on social media
it depends on your product or service
it's good and it has a moment
but it's gone as well so quickly
I think there's not a lot of longevity
and people don't really remember your stuff as long as
you know
they might if they read a great story about you
or if there was something um
that you were sharing with a really wide audience
because you've got an instant audience
with traditional media you know
you can speak at 200,000 people on Radio National in
you know in the morning
and that's really powerful
um but it also gives you credibility in a way
which I think yeah
you know
it's great having your own personal brand and so forth
but doesn't everybody have that
and don't we wanna be different
so I think
people need to think
a little bit beyond just the shiny
new tech and those platforms that are out there
yeah I think that's a really big thing
what you said then is about
you know credibility and social proofing
um it's one thing for me to say how good I am
but it's when other people
you know are
are telling that story
I know working in the wine industry for many years
it's like
we can stand there and say how great this wine is
but as soon as um
you know holiday had
you know recommended the wine
everyone wanted it and of course
it's sold out you know
it's like third party yeah
absolutely and so I think you can't ignore it
um I think
you know the younger generation
obviously don't consume media in the same way
but the news of the day is still driven
by traditional media that is the reality
you know
whatever you see on the radio or TV in the morning
it'll even drive the way social media responds to yeah
to stuff and content so that's called newsjacking
and that's a really
important part of people's strategy as well yeah
so what do you think um
are the main challenges that like big corporates and
and people in business uh face these days
then I think when you're in a big monolith company
it gets very easy not to do comms well
because you've always got a leader or a team
or somebody else or a corporate kind of line to follow
and so to be able to kind of elevate your message and
and what different offering you have
does take a little bit more effort
like I think you're kind of cushioned if you like
I have see a lot of people who left corporate
and they start their own business
and they often come to me and they're like amazing
I did for 20 years I was like a solicitor
and I'd speak to people all the time
but this is completely different
it's like because you're now on your own
and you don't have the backing of a household name
brand so I think for corporates
it's about being really aware that um
you know the audiences will shift and move
and we are in the court of public opinion
so a lot of corporates have a no
no media policy
like they don't wanna speak to the media
but even when times are bad
you can't really do no comment
you don't get away with that anymore
and there's always a whistleblower
or someone in your organisation
that's willing to speak so um
I think for most companies now
they're realising the importance of being agile
and nimble in their comms
and not just having a blanket policy and
and actually being more human in how they communicate
which doesn't come naturally
believe it or not to a lot of leaders
and it's really interesting you say that as well
because I know that um
big corporates have
responded to what's going around on social media
as well so if uh
people have posted up something um
the corporates can either respond and jump on it uh
or they can turn the other cheek
and I had an instance recently when I was uh
on the Gold Coast where I posted up a story um
you know because my accommodation
you know was I made an error with my accommodation and
and I did a cast out going hey
you know would anyone recommend
because this is what's happened where I'm staying
and my you know
the rate was gonna be like
twice as much as what I was gonna be staying
to extend the night and the next minute uh
that hotel chain had actually uh
reached out via DMS and responded to me
and then created a solution uh offline
with that
so it's really interesting how like corporates
you know can be agile
like he said and communicate effectively or
you know not at all
so hmm
interesting isn't it
it's interesting and I think it's just changed
as the expectations have changed
you know we do expect
a bit more instant communication these days as well
accessibility isn't it all the time
I mean that can be good and bad
but I think when it's a crisis or an issue
like what you're talking about
that does demand you know
some sort of response yeah
and and talk to me about what is the like
and we're talking about corporates then
so what about small businesses
what do you think that their best
you know
foot approach like is moving forward with their comms
it depends on the type of business
of course things that are a product based
um you know
things like TikTok and Instagram are really great
for them to then do
with earned media as well
um most people in service based businesses
they are the brand often so being able to be um
reaching their audiences
through strategic comms is really important
so that might be being like a guest on a podcast
like I am today um
to reach the right audience
or it could be plethora of things
um the one thing people forget about is
you know turn those blogs into op eds
lots of trade media will publish that
and that reaches a whole new audience
and then you get the reach and the shares
and the likes and all the bits you need
without having to do all that leg work
because you probably found that as well Deb
like the algorithm changes all the time
and it's really hard to get cut through
and I the other thing I'm really big on at the moment
is the scarcity model
so this idea that you post all day every day
I think people mustn't be doing any work
if they're doing that like what
what are you doing and so yes
you can schedule and all of that
but that's a bit tone deaf sometimes
if it's not bang on at the right time
so I said to people sometimes
you know maybe pay that back a little bit
and then when people do hear from you
oh my goodness
I haven't seen you on LinkedIn for two weeks
that's great whereas if you're posting all the time
I tend to snooze people and I just
I feel like that's a waste of time for people
and so for anyone listening
that doesn't know what an opiate is
or how to create one what would you recommend with that
so that's basically an opinion piece
every publication pretty much has
if you go into their website
an opinion section
and they will actually give you guidelines
please stick to the guidelines
if they say 600 words
600 words don't give them 1,000 and go
hey editor
do your thing they want it to be the right voice
the right tone if they want subheads
do subheads if they
they might not even
be able to do hyperlinks to your business
but might use your name and your byline
so it's about reaching an audience through a view
but the reality is too we don't do grey in journalism
it's it's
it's gotta be black or it's white
it's the best or the worst
it's the top AI the worst AI um
you know
a human experience leading with your own personal story
because it is an opinion piece
it can be really powerful
or a client story
that's usually like a negative thing that's happened
and how that turned around
or surprising or unusual or unexpected thing
so it's taking I guess
journalistic news values
and turn that into a piece where your thought
leadership is then amplified through that particular um
type of media usually it's online
such great advice
I love that so much because I feel like with um
blogs at the moment
there is that tendency to turn out whatever ChatGPT
you know write me a blog about this
and it becomes very tone deaf because
you know I can see the people that do that and it just
there's no human connection to it
there's no story behind it
and you know
we were talking about you know storytelling
how important is storytelling
in our communication
it's everything I think at the moment
I mean it probably always has been um
and even with Earn Media
I could tell you nine times out of 10
a journalist will come back to me
even if it's a great picture
a story idea we've got for a client
whether that be a corporate or a small business
and say do you have a case study
and often you can be the case study
or your client could be the case study
or your product or service could be part of the case
study um
and that's all about storytelling
you know they want show me prove it
don't just tell me about it
so that's really the power of storytelling and
and if you go into any business media
you will see that it'll often lead with a story
you know meet Joe Blow
he left his taxes um for five years
the tax office came on his knocking on his door
he was up for a 20 thousand dollar order Bill
you know that kind of then I guess
reverse engineers into the thought expertise
rather than just the promotion of the product
or service available
um and it's about creating
I guess relatability or shock and awe
they're the two things we're really looking for
when we are doing that that case study type PR
I love that shock and awe and relatability
two powerful things to keep in mind
when we're creating content
I think um
and that is you know
whether it is an opinion piece or
you know any other kind of content as well
you know in our emails as well
I feel like um
you know if we're sending out emails to our database
that whole thing of just you know
copy and pasting and things really doesn't
you know like you said
it becomes white noise after a while
but I know that even emails that I get sent
if I know that it actually has
a relatable story in there
from their perspective are more likely to read it
even if it is a longer email
and I like to keep things short and brief in many cases
but I do get taken down that storytelling
um you know
uh road when I read something
you know uh
that I'm interested in as well
so very powerful um
tell me about with a storytelling
what are your tips on crafting a good story
I think understanding your hook
and understanding your audience
so your hook is your opening line
um your sentence and that could be um
you know
if you're doing a keynote speech or a Tedx or a webinar
um the worst thing you can do is go
hi my name is Amber Danes from the spoke
how thanks for joining me
I mean you've wasted 12 seconds
no chance to make that first impression again
people tend to know who you are
because it's been promoted or it's on a
on a name card and so forth or on the screen
so I think you've got out
really capture people from the beginning
um so working out what that is
but also
right message for the right audience at the right time
they're the they're the three things you've got to do
so it's all very well to have a hero keynote
for example
but you might have to tweak the examples you use
if you're talking to
a room full of tech startup people
versus if you're in a room with a bunch of lawyers
or accountants and they might have
you know other
other concerns around what they're doing in their coms
so being mindful you have to land with the audience
uh huh and at the end of the day
it's never about you it's always about them
they're
they're the main things I would share with storytelling
I think um
we live in a world where we're very much
I mean even the invention of the selfie
I mean I'm the person
that will go out to dinner
and get the waiter to take a photo of me
and my friends at the table
because the whole idea of taking a selfie
it's just not my thing it's like
you know like it's
isn't that what my teenage son does
like it just doesn't feel like
it feels like
we spend so much time looking at ourselves
is what I'm trying to get to that
we forget that we are really talking to other humans
hmm and they're never as interested in you
as they are in themselves
and so at the end of the day
they wanna walk away with something they've learnt
something they didn't know or something to think
feel or do with the message that you are sharing
and that's what you've got to remember
from the moment you put pen to paper
that is so powerful uh
I was recently working with somebody on their
you know strategy
and they said I wanna make a video like this
and that's the gold standard in the franchise
that they were involved in
and it was you know
the typical video of hi
I'm blah blah blah
and I I
I I I I
I I
I I
and I'm sitting there with this person
and I'm saying to them okay
so when we do this script formula
it's not about I it's all about like you just said
the hook so what's the problem
what is the solution that relates to that person
that relatability
and so it was really contrasting between
and like when I broke down their script
she's like I never
I never looked at it like that
you know but every
you know it was the typical
you know standing
you know face to camera
and it was just like I am this and I am that and I'm
I'm I'm and I'm like
no that's not what people are interested in
it's boring and it might look pretty
but it's not gonna be effective
because it has nothing to do with your
the person on the other end of the line
exactly
who's the audience and who you're trying to speak to
and actually just picture them
you know
picture what problem you're solving and for whom
so and that turns around your communication style
to be much more extroverted and less about yourself
yeah now we're talking about awards before
how do you feel about awards uh
giving us credibility
where does that stand in the whole um
you know comms game for you these days
there's a lot of awards
and I think the award has to mean something to you
but I can guarantee you
it's not gonna bring you any new business
and I can say that as someone who wins awards um
but I'm also aware of what awards I go into
so every year I'll think about it
um I don't wanna have just a trophy cabinet of awards
it's for me the Asia Pacific Stevie Award that
that you mentioned in the intro
um I wanted to win a regional award for coms to
to kind of punch above my weight
in terms of being a small
micro agency in Australia
but I also didn't want a gendered award
I didn't wanna win yeah right
a female business award I've won those
and there's nothing wrong with those and they're great
but a lot of my clients are men so
you know for me yeah
once again it's about my audience
and so I think it gives you a bit of credit
it's interesting though
when I went over to Manila to the
to the ceremony in may I sat on a table with um
all sorts of people but one of the gentleman next to me
he was from China and of course
they don't have LinkedIn
we couldn't connect because they've got closed media
so they've got Wechat and they can't have LinkedIn
they're not allowed any of that and he had a family um
medical tech business but he also said in
in in China awards are everything
it'll get you government contracts
it'll get you clients like
he'd flown over just for the day to get this award yeah
yeah yeah
so I think they are good and and and you know
you'll reach people and you might network
but I certainly have never seen myself
someone ring up and go oh
I'm contacting you
because you won an award for innovative communication
it might be their subconscious
but it's not really what they're coming to you for
they're coming to you for
the range of other things that you offer
and I think sometimes people
it's funny I
I I struggle with the whole posting about awards
like I'll do it and it's like
I don't wanna say humbled
I don't wanna like it's just
it's all the cliches right
and I think that you know
self deprecating mind that I have where I'm like
are you really humbled and honoured
or is it just another thing you're doing
and I I like to be a bit more playful in my comms
and I think that's also my personality though
you know I
I try not to to be a cliche
and I try not to use
ChatGPT to write my LinkedIn posts
yeah cause I'm a writer
if I can't do that what am I here for
yeah speaking of LinkedIn
there's some massive changes coming on
uh do tell
well with video
like they've really doubled down on
um focusing on video
it's you know
speaking to you know
been in a few master classes lately of
you know people that are
you know contacted by LinkedIn to go
hey can you put some more videos on
because we wanna push it now
so it's interesting
so how do you feel about LinkedIn as far as like
from a social media perspective
like what's your take on that for
you know corporates and businesses
I mean it's probably the one place
I will only get business because of the type of um
I guess the work I do with media
training and presentation skills
and it's just a ready made network
I think it's shifted and changed
I don't post all the time and I do
try and make my post interesting
but I'm also mindful that a lot of my clients
are more conservative so
you know
I can't do anything too ridiculous or too out there
or too cause
you know there's a whole
the whole the game of five how you do it
and yeah some it is
it's constant shock and awe
or they'll kind of put a photo of
you know
something really random and it does get attention
um engagement
I would argue is that your ideal customer
and I think you know
for me a lot of the times
people are looking for a safe pair of hands
when they come to me for media training
or crisis and PR um
and so
I need to demonstrate that I can't be too flippant um
or you know
kind of you know
say bad things about media
cause I need the media as well for
for my clients so I've just I'm always mindful
but I also if something's really important to me
I'll definitely share that on LinkedIn um
but I think you know
you've got to be mindful of the audience
and who you're speaking to
yeah very true
what is one
what do you find with your clients that come to you
what is the main challenge that they seem to uh
have these days that you see as more of a
you know oh
that's
that's quite a interesting evolution compared to say
10 years ago I think a lot of people don't
I mean it's probably not changed
but people still don't understand why they should
engage with media if it's a risk
so they'll go yeah
you know I can do a video and upload it to our website
and no one's interviewing me
it's just the CEO
giving some statement that they're sorry
about something or
you know whatever it is
and they don't wanna be pushed and questioned
and they're like you know um
why would I do that when there's a high risk
but the risk is if you don't
other people in the court of public opinion
of social media will then make up their own minds
so it I think for a lot of people
it's the traditional I don't wanna follow my sword
I find this hard I'll avoid it at all costs
I'll do all the other things
I'll craft a fabulous website statement
I'll reach out to stakeholders
we'll do an internal comms vid
we'll do a lunch and learn
we'll do all the bits but I won't go on four corners
and then they issue a statement on four corners
and every time people do that
I just think coward
you know you've got to go on
everyone else has gone on
why can't you just go on today and
and do it and even if it's really
against your personal comfort zone um
you know it's particularly in times of crisis
I said if people victims are always the story
you're not the story um
and people remember didn't go on as well
and so often
I'm giving strategic advice to boards and execs
around that but the end of the day
I can't force them to do it
I can just give them all the reasoning why um
but I think a lot of people
there's an avoidance when it comes to doing comms
or doing it consistently and well yeah amazing
um what about uh podcasting
I know that you coach people on podcasting
how is that changed in the way we communicate
these days there's so many podcast stuff
yeah I think that's a thing
I started mine in 2017 um
early episodes sound like I'm in a
in a concrete bunker um
because I didn't know what I was doing
I mean I worked in TV and radio
but I had tech people you know
I just had to show up and
and read the news I mean
I didn't have to worry about being mic'd up
or any of that stuff so the platforms have got better
it's democratized I think um
the airwaves in a way which is powerful and awesome
and I
I probably consume more podcast than I do any other
form of media um
cause I can do them on my commute to Sydney or
you know when I'm doing groceries whatever
um it's probably a sign of my age as well
I quite love a podcast um
even at the gym I listen to a podcast yeah
um
but I think it's a great way to get information across
I think once again though um
to get traction it's like anything consistent
persistent like don't do 12 episodes and go
I only got 2,000 downloads
I'm never doing that again
you gotta show up you gotta keep showing up
I've had 5 million downloads why
cause I kept showing up I mean
I had three downloads for the first month
I think back in 2017
I'm sure two of them were my producer
checking the sound so
you know it's it
it takes time to build an audience um
but also think about strategically
the first thing I say to people always is
if you wanna do it
a show every week and you don't wanna just do a season
what could you talk about for an hour every week
for a year and if you don't have 52 episodes
you don't have a show yeah
you've got a blog you know
or or
or PDF workbook or something
you don't you don't have a show
you gotta map it out
and you gotta know what you're doing
and you gotta make sure
it doesn't sound like everybody else's yeah
that's a really good point as well
um
what other advice would you have
if you wanted to grow your podcast
um I think depends on the type of podcast
so for me I have guests on
it's not a single voice podcast
so if it's that type of style of show
like I work with corporates
who do much more narrative podcast
or one person podcast or advice or guests and stuff
um you
I think having some high profile people on can help
but don't rely on it so
some of my most downloaded episodes
are not the ones with Tracy Spicer
or Alison Bray on them
or all the people you would think yeah yeah
um it's
because someone else is an expert
in something that's really trending at the time
whether that be cryptocurrency or burnout
or whatever it might be
so being mindful of what your audience might want
and also asking them for feedback
I I think people just in a vacuum
chuck it out to the world
um and that's not always great
have people kind of say what they want
what they liked why they liked it
um you know
open up that form of communication as well
I mean I
it probably won't make a lot of money from podcast
unless it's picked up by a commercial network
um my show's monetized now
but it took a long time so um
that's the other thing you can't do it for the money
you do it because it's a platform
and a channel to get your ideas out there
yeah absolutely
and talking about ideas
you've also written a book and how did that come about
talk to me about like does it add credibility
you know for you
has that helped as well I think it did
I mean I wrote that book a number of years ago
before the term influencer was a thing
so the word
influence was just my take on what communications
was really about what do people really want
they wanna be influential in their business
or their life so um
that book really did open some doors for me
and it was a great I
which I can say it was an expensive business card
because you know
um
you don't like make a little movements for books either
unless you're a best seller
and I was a best seller
but it took a long time to get to that status
but it did allow me to get in
I worked with Tedx I work with some great corporates
who have a whole storytelling wing to their business
they have their own production studios
and some of these big four consulting firms
and it's a well oiled machine
and so if you've got a book
which backs up your thought leadership
they get a taste of you before they buy your services
and I think for me at the time
it was definitely
the most powerful way to open a lot of doors
and send it out to all kind of potential clients
at the time hmm
so like podcasting it is literally a
a a slow burn as far
as you're not there to make money out of it
but it will help position your credibility
and your thought leadership essentially
and what you wanna be known for
so I think we kind of you know
there's so many things we kind of love or we're good at
especially as entrepreneurs
bright shiny object syndrome
what are the one or two words that you really
you know wanna be known for
and then you can put those into your into your comms
and I think that's what people remember
they don't wanna go oh
she can do a bit of this and a bit of that
and a bit of this and a bit of that
they wanna know oh
she does presentation skills
and she helps people build influence
that's it yeah
and everything else is just what else happens around
it's the tactics of how you do that
whether that be through podcasting or media
or whatever it might be and you mentioned um
presenting then
what do you think the main mistakes
are that people make with presenting
it's probably very similar to what I talked about
not getting that hook rush
yeah um
and either practicing too much or not practicing enough
and not practicing in the space they're gonna be in
so if you're online we're very contained here
it's very hard to present the same way
but if you're going to be on stage
hmm use space
I never have elected and I want that gone um
you know many years ago I did
I went on a road show with um
the demographer Bernard Salt
who's also a media commentator um
he's the one that came out with the smashed avocado
thing about the millennials and uh
started like a you know
culture war about a decade ago about the
too busy having smashed avocado
to actually save for a house deposit
love it but yeah
and he did have a hat saying mate
smashed avocado great again when we went on tour
so that was cool so we could laugh about it um
but he taught me so much about space and it like
say you're on a stage
he calls that front bit of the stage
the point Piper of real estate
you don't wanna be back there
you wanna be in your audience
you wanna make eye contact
you wanna use space you wanna walk
you wanna own the whole stage
and I think particularly as women
we don't do that we contain ourselves
and you know
other than a Ted talk we have to stand on that
on that Red Cross every other time
I will try and use even if I'm in a small boardroom
I'll move around that room
this is my room this is
I'm commanding the attention
I won't sit I'll stand um
and I'll make eye contact with everybody
and that actually calms your nerves as well
believe it or not yeah
there's a physicality in that
I think when we're two in our body and we just nervous
it can come across in your voice um
and so if you moving it's an old
you know newsreader trick too
you try and get air into your diaphragm
and then off you go and everything else just flows
but if you don't practice that
you won't you won't know how to do it
and that helps to build connection as well
doesn't it
because you're engaging in the audience and you know
where they feel that emotion and get connected to you
absolutely so I think that's the main thing people um
by the wing it or they just
they practice it at their desk
they don't do it in space
and that's what you need to do
you actually need to move
you know I was talking about this
when I did a recent video challenge
it was about you know
when they were reading out their script
it's um and you know
using a teleprompter it's like
a lot of people had expected to
get it right on the first go
oh no it's like the thing is
is like if you look at an actor
they'll rehearse you know
one hour for every minute they're actually performing
and so
it's really important when you are doing a script
is to read it out loud all the time though
all the time though like if I got a massive gig and I
need to know in a one hour keynote off by heart
and I'm not a big fan of slides
that's probably my other thing like okay um
slides are good I always say to people
if you can give me the slide deck afterwards as a PDF
lovely I don't want people reading their slides
you are presenting because you are a human um
so one hour presentation I'd have 8 slides max um
and it wouldn't be anything particularly detailed
I'd be talking through the ideas um
but it also means that if that slide deck failed
which has happened yeah
I could still do my keynote yeah
I think the tech is a crutch and I
I want people to I call it Barack Obama
he wouldn't have a Powerpoint would he
so he would have he would just get up and speak
and that's the gold standard
I suppose and as times you need to
you know have some slides
but I said if you could hand something out afterwards
and they're gonna not be looking at the screen
they'll be looking at you
and then you're gonna feel way better as a presenter
uh if I was wanting to excuse me
if I if I was wanting to train up to be
a presenter on stage what are the key elements
that you would train somebody to do
basically finding um
I guess what what their pain points are
so for a lot of people it's nerves
they're physical they're they're little nervous ticks
we all have them do they fiddle
they don't know what to do with their hands um
they
they sway from side to side a lot of it's that stuff
the physical manifestations
and then we worry about the content
um in some ways
so remember you're speaking
it's an active it's a verb so you
you wanna be make sure that you're
you're good in how you're saying stuff
as well as what you're saying
sometimes it's about voice as well
some people wanna work on their voice and their tone
and projection um breathing
managing their nerves that way um
but they're the main things
it's mindset really and then feeling so rehearsed
that you are able to do it in your sleep
but then when you get up it's like an actor
it's showtime and you give it 180% plus uh
it can't sound like you know it off by heart
cause I can tell when people are doing
that's why I don't love a teleprompter
I have to say all my CEOs go
oh we're doing video day um
can I have it as a crutch
and I say it'll be your last thing I will offer you
like my production team will have it
and your script is loaded and ready to go
but I hate when you see people's eyes
oh me too and they get the dead stare
that's how you are when you're on a teleprompter
you look
like you are staring down the bell of the camera
nobody does that we all look up we look off camera
hundred percent um
and I think people think they're gonna look good
and they're never happy with the result
I'm gonna be honest with you yeah
I I'm
I really struggle using teleprompters because again
I would much rather know my
you know points that I'm talking about
as opposed to using a teleprompter
I know they have their place and everything I have
but their place yeah
they definitely have their place
it's interesting looking at YouTube um
you know creators
like I know who's using a teleprompter
and the really good guys are
are still expressive and they still
oh totally cause I know it really well
they just do it as a backup
so as a newsreader on Sky News
I had to use a teleprompter
that's how the news comes like it's all on a thing
but you also know it enough
but it's also the other things
it's really blown up
so you kind of only have three words per line
you're not kind of squinting yeah
um but also you get very good at having
we call it
like a warm face when you're reading the news
so that you you don't get that stare
we're just staring down the barrel of the camera
and going back to presenting on stage
and how important is story when you are
crafting your content everyone remembers the stories
no one's gonna remember your data like
you know you have to give people some data
depending on the type of audience
business audience you know
one in three Australians have a mortgage therefore X
y and Z might be part of it
but the stories you tell
and what cleverness you have in that is
is really important and you're
one of the things with storytelling is
you mentioned not doing I
I I so when you're telling a story
you give the characters names
that's one something I learnt very early on in some um
some workshops I did um around presentation skills um
with Nida is you know
I might say you know my first boss Betty
what she really taught me is
and Betty might not be a name
but you have to do that you can't just go my first boss
like people wanna know the characters
it's like you're playing you know
at basically writing out a script
so that's one thing
and having dialogue super important in there as well
so you might say and Betty said to me
the best way to get your first job is
and then give you the advice
rather than my first boss told me this
it's a really different way of thinking
but we try and get people to do that
and that's like they've done studies
people remember that
that they remember dialogue and who said it
so powerful great tips wow
so much to unpack here uh
tell me before we uh
start to wrap up how does AI come into comms these days
how does that affect what you are doing
and the people that you're working with
so I'm gonna say that I'm probably not the most tech
savvy person in the world um
I've got a tech platform I've just um
founder called ASG for PR
which is great
but it's totally a whole new world for me wow
AI for me I think
is something where I use it to
either be the starting point
or a framework for client work
so that could be around their content strategy um
it could be just starting off with some ideas
for a particular um
you know script that they might be working with you
they're gonna do some videos
just so they feel like they
they can then go away and work on it themselves
and put themselves in it um
measuring success is really important
so having some AI tools which can do instant reporting
and audience reach and audience sentiment
that's really a game changer
cause in PR particularly with corporates
they need return on investment
they wanna know um
you know basically how
how the campaign's gone um
but certainly
I have resisted having everything be techified
and a lot of what we do is fairly confidential with say
a really high profile crisis client or um
government clients they don't let us use AI
you can't use like Otter AI in a government meeting
hmm and because they know it
that could be used
and that could be called up to Parliament as well
like if there's hearing so there's a whole legality to
to cons that people probably haven't thought about
in that way
they just think it's this great tool that helps them
but our data's being used it's being mined
it's being monetized and so um
I would say there's certain things I love
and certain things I've gone
let's just see what happens hmm yeah
for sure definitely
it's uh I went into perplexity before
and I was just updating some settings
in the background
and just made sure that a few things were turned off
for that reason
that my information can't be shared and
and whatever
and it's just really important to check those things
because often we'll just download apps as well
without actually reading any t's and C's in that
and you're so desperate to get to the good stuff
yeah you just sacrifice all the privacy and yeah
absolutely so I think we all need to be aware of that
I think in comms you know
as I said
people do hire us because we are good communicators um
my my more junior staff
I think AI is really help me on board them quicker
because you know
they might go into a ChatGPT or into a prowly
which is a monitoring platform we use
and have some idea of what to do
and then just come to me to tinker it
I'm not having to sit with them and actually do that
um but I would say to them
you know our clients are not paying us for something
they can do themselves
so we need to put ourselves in there
we need to show expertise
and we need to show that we understand them
and I don't think the intelligence of the AI
is there yet you know
even in terms of pictures to journalists
they would get a AI pictures all the time
and I reckon they'd ignore them because it's not
you can sort of tell it's too generic yeah
it hasn't really said oh
this is the story you wrote last week
or I really love to how you're
you know covering this particular topic
it's not there yet yeah
it's not personal and
and same with I don't know how you feel
but in you know
certain social media platforms
you know there's people that instantly commenting
it's all AI generated plus it is
and I'm like I'm I'm sort of freaked out like
and some of it doesn't even make sense
it doesn't it's like the right words
but the wrong tone
or it's just too formal or it's too American or yeah
and the people I know and I'm like
is this actually adding value
or you just wanna be first and
and prolific is that
you know is that part of the strategy
hmm yeah
it's definitely evolving the
the social media landscape
that's for sure what about video
uh is there
I mean one of the things is
you know being confident on camera
and getting to that stage
that you can confidently talk with media
what tips would you have for people to
if they were you know
called up to a show that they're about to go on
first thing is to actually watch that show
and I say that with the knowledge that
most people don't watch traditional media anymore
you know with the world of streaming
we don't really watch shows in the same way
and news is on demand on our phones
so if you're going to go and for example
if you're in Australia on the project um
make sure you watch the project
know its panel style
know that they take piss out of you a little bit
then joking um
you have to know the news of the day
you've got to know your topic
how long are you gonna be on there for
it might be three questions
5 minutes uh huh
prepare for that make sure you're not too long winded
um and just practice out loud actually
just record yourself even on your phone
yeah um
make sure your eyeline's good
usually if you're doing unless you're doing a cross
which is kind of like this um
if you go in studio you'll be off camera
so you'll be looking to the hosts
know where your eyeline should be
yeah and
and also this sounds really a bit superficial
and hopefully doesn't offend people
but dress appropriately and I know that sounds weird
but we notice the non verbal cues on TV
more than anything else so if someone's something
wearing something that's strobing like a striped shirt
yes um
or earrings that are really noisy and getting caught in
caught in their mic um
if we notice that and unfortunately
that detracts away from your message
so yeah dress how you wanna dress
but if you're representing your brand
make sure you look professional
um and that you're comfortable in what you're wearing
and it's not sort of too overly dressed
but not too casual as well
I think post covid we're all a bit more casual
but I often say to people like
does that look good on on camera
like you know
a block colour always looks great
black and white never looks good
like no
don't ever do that don't
no one wants to see that so even for blokes
I'll say to them bit of a coloured shirt
you know no one wears ties anymore
um and it also makes you feel like you're you're
you're in the game you know
you don't wanna be worse dressed than the host
that's what I say to them
like if they're in a suit on the today
show maybe think about wearing a bit of a
you know a business clothes
yeah
obviously if you're in a not for profit and whatever
it's different you know
you might not work but definitely
don't dress like you're just going down for a coffee
with your friend or in your active wear
yeah and I'm saying this and I feel ridiculous
but I realised that the expectation of that has dropped
because in covid everyone was home more
and so they do TV crosses from home
but the end of the day
like it all lives online for a long time
do you want to be remembered for the person to sing
as in a singlet on national TV
probably not and just on that as well
like even just doing zoom meetings
I always encourage people to
you know level up their zoom
like I've done a whole podcast episode on it of going
level up your you know
your zoom meeting look at your background
you know absolutely
I love that you've done that
you'd be perfect on TV cause you've thought that
you don't have your old tax returns behind you
or like you know
the lighting's really bad or they kind of
you're looking up their nose because yes
because they haven't got their
you know their laptop is down here
and they're looking down at the camera
and I'm like but you're a person in authority
and the if you were in a boardroom
meeting you wouldn't present like this
so really
think about how you present in your zoom meetings
because that stuff matters
you know
and I even see it when people are being interviewed
on zoom like on on camera
like on a TV show TV yeah
and they're dialing in and I'm like
come on put a little bit more into it right
oh they're like painting is crooked
all the plants coming out of their heads yes
yes you know and and things that are crooked
yeah and also
you can't use green screen if you're gonna do a cross
so this is just a pull up background
yeah um
cause you get that kind of fuzziness around your head
and also yeah
and don't blow your background
you can't don't blow your background
can't do that on TV
and the amount of people that just don't care
or don't think about it
it just detracts away from your message
and we're not that superficial
but we are visual people hundred percent
and that's why even when we're talking on camera
it's like I wear things that give me good energy
because we know the camera
you know sucks the life out of us
you know it flattens and dulls our
you know expressions and personality
so it's really important
stripes and spots and busy patterns and things
and crooked like unironed shirts
yes you know
and I said to him if you're gonna go on TV
you're gonna be mic'd up so
you know have fabric like this is quite solid
I can have clip of mic on
it's not gonna drag if you like it's quite thin fabric
yeah it's gonna be skew
if and then you're gonna look back at it and go
why did no one tell you
because they're not gonna tell you just gonna go in
do your thing and get off
but you'll notice it for the rest of your life
you know yeah uh
it's even interesting
when I was on a TV show many years ago
I had to be mindful of the dresses that I wore
because I knew I was gonna have a big um
mic pack on my back and it's like if it was
the dress was form fitting
it's like it's hard to stick that up there and
and it's just have to have things like that yeah
I often wear two pieces for that reason
or if you're gonna be on a couch yeah
um and they're zooming out
make sure that it's not too tight or too short
and you're comfortable
and that you're wearing footwear that looks okay
and yes all that stuff the little details that matter
don't they absolutely
it's all part of the deal and so that's TV yeah
exactly so
what recommendations
would you have to anyone that's in business
uh like small business for example
to you know
get level up their comms and get seen and and heard and
you know be recognised I think just have a strategy um
think about it as part of your business
not something you do
only when you're launching something
or you have a new product or service
be always on um
and actually take carve out time and I guess a
a PR mindset in your business to go every week
what could I be doing that's edging me towards that
you won't necessarily get coverage every week
you've got to have a plan
otherwise it's not gonna happen
no one's gonna just knock on your door and
and say hey um
unless you know you become very famous
so I think for people just do it and and
and see it as something you would do
just like you would do your tax or anything else hmm
and is there any like tips on where that
where they could start what's it
what's an easy win
to just get them into that mode of each week
thinking about it I would just start writing
turn a blog into an op ed
that's the easiest thing you've do
you've got the content yeah
turn that into an op ed for your for your audience
so that might be a trade publication um
or it could be um
it could be for the Sydney Morning Herald
or something else
but actually try to get your voice out there
and then you can get the confidence
I think to then do other other mediums as well
gosh so many good things
thank you so much Amber
and how can people find you
what have you got coming out
what's on your radar at the moment
you got any courses or how can people work with you
so we have some small business packages
which I launched a couple of months ago
which are great they're um
a way to do three
six or 12 month programs with us and really get
I guess get your education in PR as much as you know
we do stuff for you
so that's all on Amber Danes dot com
of course I'm on LinkedIn and Insta
my handlers bespoke co ad love it
love it so much thank you so much for your time today
um I yeah
I think there's been so many takeaways
I can't wait to relisten to this episode and and um
and tune into all those good
little bits of advice as well
thank you Amber
and I hope this episode has been helpful
and if it has
please share it with somebody else that you may know
that wants to know
more about how to better communicate
and tell stories that make an impact as well
so thank you
